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The first dating detail exposes circular reasoning, which occurs when one assumes a particular outcome in arguing for that same outcome. In the Greenland ice sheet, clear seasonal layers are found only in the upper parts of the cores, but in central Antarctica less snowfall and blowing snow prevent clear seasonal layering. Because ice layers become less distinct at greater depths, simply discerning deeper layers becomes more difficult. Counting layers sounds straightforward, but circular reasoning even shows up here. For example, secular scientists dated the Greenland GISP2 ice core by counting what they presumed were annual patterns of, among other features, dust, volcanics, isotopes, and ions in the ice. The second dating detail questions whether or not each layer represents a year.

These two important details derail the ice-core argument for an old earth: layers are not necessarily annual, and researchers employ circular reasoning to adjust counts to fit the vast ages they expect. The volcanism during the Flood year would have warmed ocean water enough for increased evaporation and precipitation to rapidly build the ice sheets.

Cite this article: Various Authors. Skip to main content. References Thomas, B. Nye vs. Ham Debate: No True Scotsman.

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Creation Science ate. Posted on icr. Paterson, W. Representing the anti-creation side in a recent debate, Bill Nye mentioned a ,year-old Antarctic core. This number was not obtained by counting annual layers but by theoretical flow models.

Meese, D. Churchdescribed by Pavel Talalay as "the father of modern snow surveying". They are simply pushed into the snow and rotated by hand. The first systematic study of snow and firn layers was by Ernst Sorge, who was part of the Alfred Wegener Expedition to central Greenland in - Core quality was poor, but some scientific work was done on the retrieved ice. The International Geophysical Year - saw increased glaciology research around the world, with one of the high priority research targets being deep cores in polar regions.

SIPRE conducted pilot drilling trials in to m and to m at Site 2 in Greenland; the second core, with the benefit of the previous year's drilling experience, was retrieved in much better condition, with fewer gaps. Soviet ice drilling projects began in the s, in Franz Josef Lan the UralsNovaya Zemlyaand at Mirny and Vostok in the Antarctic; not all these early holes retrieved cores.

The Dome C core had very low accumulation rates, which mean that the climate record extended a long way; by the end of the project the usable data extended toyears ago. Incores were retrieved from the Allan Hills in Antarctica in an area where old ice lay near the surface. The cores were dated by potassium-argon dating; traditional ice core dating is not possible as not all layers were present. The oldest core was found to include ice from 2.

Inscientific discussions began which resulted in the Greenland Ice Sheet Project GISPa multinational investigation into the Greenland ice sheet that lasted until A location in north-central Greenland was selected as ideal, but financial constraints forced the group to drill at Dye 3 instead, beginning in The hole did not reach bedrock, but terminated at a subglacial river.

The core provided climatic data back toyears ago, which covered part of the last interglacial period. Ice cores have been drilled at locations away from the poles, notably in the Himalayas and the Andes. IPICS International Partnerships in Ice Core Sciences has produced a series of white papers outlining future challenges and scientific goals for the ice core science community.

These include plans to:. From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

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Cylindrical sample drilled from an ice sheet. See also: Ice-sheet dynamics. See also: Ice drilling. Sliver of Antarctic ice showing trapped bubbles. See also: History of scientific ice drilling. Paleoclimatology: Reconstructing Climates of the Quaternary. Amsterdam: Academic Press. Cheltenham, UK: Stanley Thornes. In Blais, Jules M. Dordrecht, Netherlands: Springer.

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Retrieved 3 June Annals of Glaciology. East Greenland Ice Core Project. Retrieved 17 June Archived from the original on 28 June The New Yorker. National Ice Core Laboratory.

Archived from the original on 4 May Retrieved 21 May Eos Trans AGU. Memoirs of National Institute of Polar Research 49 : Archived from the original on 14 July Climate of the Past. The Cryosphere.

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ScienceX network. Retrieved 29 May Encyclopedia of Quaternary Science. Amsterdam: Elsevier. EGU General Assembly Vienna, Austria. Retrieved 5 September Journal of Quaternary Science. Archived from the original on 13 February Quaternary Science Reviews. Global and Planetary Climate Change. Retrieved 20 May Centre for Ice and Climate. Retrieved 25 May Scientific American. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences. Archived from the original on 8 August Retrieved 2 June David Climate Change and Climate Modeling.

Explaining the science of Antarctic glaciers

Cambridge: Cambridge University Press. Atmospheric Chemistry and Physics.

Archived from the original on 13 September Retrieved 14 September February Journal of Geophysical Research: Solid Earth. Talos Dome Ice Core. Retrieved 28 May Retrieved 30 August Archived from the original on 18 March Retrieved 17 March Archived from the original on 11 October Alley, Richard B. The Two-Mile Time Machine. Journal of Glaciology.

Archived from the original on 9 April January Archived from the original on 18 November Reviews of Geophysics. John; Walker, Mike Reconstructing Quaternary Environments 3rd ed. Abingdon, UK: Routledge. Ice Cores. Talalay, Pavel G.

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Mechanical Ice Drilling Technology. Beijing: Springer.

Dating by annual layer counting. An ice sheet consists of layers (strata) of snow and ice, almost like a giant sandwich. In the inner part of the ice sheet where more snow accumulates than melts and evaporates (the so-called accumulation zone), a new layer of snow is deposited on top of the previous layer of snow every year. The Vostok Ice-Core is 2, meters long and was collected in two portions: 1) 0 - m in , 2) - m in The total depth of the ice sheet from which the core was collected is approximately 3, meters. Experimental Methodology The ice . Jan 01, Secular scientists believe these layers clearly mark the passage of time and date the earth-whether rings in trees, sediment layers on lake floors (called varves), or layering in the ice sheets. These dating methods seem well founded and logical because we can observe these seasonal processes happening Dr. Andrew A. Snelling.

October Periods Eras Epochs. Canon of Kings Lists of kings Limmu. Chinese Japanese Korean Vietnamese. Lunisolar Solar Lunar Astronomical year numbering. Deep time Geological history of Earth Geological time units. Chronostratigraphy Geochronology Isotope geochemistry Law of superposition Luminescence dating Samarium-neodymium dating.

Amino acid racemisation Archaeomagnetic dating Dendrochronology Ice core Incremental dating Lichenometry Paleomagnetism Radiometric dating Radiocarbon Uranium-lead Potassium-argon Tephrochronology Luminescence dating Thermoluminescence dating. Fluorine absorption Nitrogen dating Obsidian hydration Seriation Stratigraphy. All of these factors would increase the amount of dust lifted into the atmosphere to then be blown over Antarctica and deposited with the snow on the surface of the ice sheet.

Colder periods are normally times of less precipitation, as cold air is dry. The writer here is postulating more deserts by presuming a worldwide cold and dry climate. I think he may be presuming too much. A warmer world in the tropic and temperate zones, particularly where the oceans are concerned a few degrees warmer temperature in the oceans would vastly increase the rate of evaporationwould provide the precipitation for the massive snowfalls required for the laying down of not only the polar caps but for the advent of the ice age s as well.

One thing I noticed here is that the author also mentions more land being exposed during the ice age sand when I mentioned that, I was ridiculed on this forum. One thing that is not mentioned in this article is the composition of the dust. Does it show high or low amounts of volcanic material?

And at which levels? I would be curious to know this. Figure 2. Dust concentration, climatic air temperature as inferred from del measurementsand concentration of carbon dioxide and methane from measurements of trapped air are plotted against time before present. After Lorius et al. The snow near the surface of the ice sheet is like a sponge with channels of air between the snow grains.

As more and more snow is accumulated on top, the underlying snow is compressed into ice and the air forms bubbles in the ice. Ice cores therefore can be analysed not just for the chemical and physical properties of the ice, but also for the properties of the air trapped in the ice.

These bubbles are actual samples of the atmosphere up to thousands of years ago. So, analysis of them can tell us much about the atmosphere in the past. Concentrations of carbon dioxide and methane measured in the air bubbles trapped in the ice are shown in Figure 2 along with temperature and dust graphs.

Carbon dioxide and methane are greenhouse gases and the similarity between the graphs for their concentrations and the temperature change graph indicates that the greenhouse effect is real and that it has been around for many thousands of years. That is only if you are presuming many thousands of years. I studied that chart for some time. What I saw corresponds to the idea that a post flood ice age would have less dust due to winds because everything was wet.

But then you have that period in between ice ages where you see a rise in carbon dioxide as the plant life on earth was re-established and thrived. This corresponds with the rapid rise in temperature which melted the ice. Now, keep in mind that we are ONLY talking about the one pole here - the south one. These measurements do NOT tell us what the rest of the world was like at the time.

As we move to the left in graph two, or toward the present, there is a sudden rise in the dust factor. This would easily result from volcanism and the changes in relative air temperatures, and even changes in relative areas of sea temperatures, around the world.

Other ways of dating ice cores include geochemisty, wiggle matching of ice core records to insolation time series (Lemieux-Dudon et al. ), layers of volcanic ash (tephra) (Vinther et al., ), electrical conductivity, and using numerical flow models to understand age-depth relationships (Mulvaney et al., ), combined with firn. Do you know if ice core dating is accurate. I heard that Antarctica had ice rings like tree rings that go back 50, years undisturbed by a flood. If it is challenged do you know on what basis. First Response. from SeeJay. These seasonal layers can be counted. An ice core of over 2km in length has been drilled and carefully analysed.

The would cause the massive winds that seek to equalize the temperatures. More dust at a time of increasing cold and the rapid onset of a much worse ice age. Then, to the far left of the graph, a rapid rise in temperature again as the dust settles down and the temperatures and thus the pressures have also settled. The earth warms again and the ices melt, leaving what is left on the poles. You see, if one does not presume long ages, many rapid storms in a time of fluctuating temperatures and world upheaval can account for what we see in that graph.

How are ice cores dated?

Has there been a significant increase in the atmospheric concentration of greenhouse gases since the industrial revolution? The answer is yes, as can be seen from Figure 3 which shows the concentrations of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere, measured in the bubbles from an Antarctic ice core from Law Dome near Australia's Casey Station. The concentration of carbon dioxide has increased from about parts per million to parts per million, which is a rise of 25 per cent since the middle of last century.

Nitrous oxide and other greenhouse gases also show similar trends from analysis of the ice-core bubbles. The Law Dome ice core is at a location where the snow accumulation is much higher than at Vostok. Thus, the time scale for the Law Dome core is expanded and it can provide us with more detailed information about recent climate changes, though it can not go back in time as far as the deeper Vostok ice core. By sampling at very fine intervals down the ice core, and provided that each annual layer of snow is thick enough, several samples from each year may be measured for the different chemical properties.

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It has already been seen that the delta value is related to air temperature when the snow was deposited. Because it is warmer in summer and cooler in winter, and provided the snow layers are not too disturbed by wind, the delta value can show annual cycles.

Thus, these values can be used to date the ice core. Hydrogen peroxide is created in the atmosphere by a chemical reaction that requires ultraviolet light. There is a lot less ultraviolet light in the winter than in the summer in Antarctica. Thus, measurements of hydrogen peroxide dissolved in the ice also provide a good annual cycle indicator. Some observations here: first of all the dust would have had to be produced by winds bringing it in.

Therefore the pattern is upset from the outset. Secondly, it is presumed that the variations in temperatures are correlative to summer and winter variations.

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However this does not necessarily have to be the case. Uniformitarian gradualism is a presumption which rests on a shaky foundation here simply because of the presence of the varying amount of dust if nothing else! The only thing indicating "annual" cycles in the ice core is the presumption of the person interpreting the data.

In order to date the ice cores accurately, the annual layers need to be thick enough to obtain about ten measurement samples from each year. The thickness of the annual layers depends on how much snow falls each year. Thus, to obtain an ice core from which accurate, detailed dating can be derived, we need to find an Antarctic site where the snow accumulation is relatively high.

This would usually mean we need to find a low elevation site, but it must also be a site where there is no melt.

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If the snow was to melt at any time during the year, some measurements such as those involving trapped gases would be spoiled. In addition, the annual layers would be destroyed by the melt water which would, effectively, wash the evidence away. And the only way they have of estimating melt rate is to take what we have today and presume it has been that way for a very long time.

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This kind of gradualism presumes no catastrophes, no bolide hits, nothing to disturb the quiet ebb an flow of the seasons. I do not think this is a reasonable presumption when the rest of the world is looked at and the evidence for catastrophes of various kinds is so clear.

Such locations high snow accumulation, yet low summer temperatures are not easy to find. One such location, however, is near the summit of Law Dome, approximately kilometres from Casey Station, where an ice core has been drilled 1, metres through the ice sheet to the underlying bedrock.

Accurate dating for this core has been obtained back to 8, years ago using annual cycles obtained by analysis of delta value and hydrogen peroxide. A section of the graph of delta value and hydrogen peroxide is shown in Figure 4, along with the year. The ice core depth for this section is to metres, corresponding to the dates to AD.

Figure 4.

The clarity of the annual signal in the isotope data makes counting of annual layers in ? 18 O data one of the most accurate ways of dating ice cores. At least the upper parts of most Greenland ice cores have therefore been dated from thousands of ? 18 O samples that have been individually cut from the ice core, packed, and measured in a mass spectrometer (read more about the measurements here). Mar 31, by Brian Thomas, M.S., and Jake Hebert, Ph.D. * Glaciologists drill and extract cylindrical cores from high-latitude ice sheets and use different techniques to estimate the cores' age at certain depths. Bible skeptics, like recent debater Bill Nye,1 claim these ice cores contain hundreds of thousands of annual layers, far too many for the Bible's short timescale. However, two "dating. The claims that layers of ice were forme years ago or more come primarily from interpretation of ice cores in Antarctica (Jouzel, et al., ; Barnola, et al., l). The Soviet Antarctic Expeditions at Vostok in East Antarctica recovered an ice core which was almost 7, feet long in a region where the total ice thickness is about.

Detailed analysis of section of the DSS ice core summit of Law Dome, Antarctica showing del value, Peroxide concentration, Sulphate concentration and Conductivity values. Section of ice core is from to metres depth, covering the time period toand including evidence of two volcanic eruptions.

Ice layers dating

I am curious to know the sulfate measurements for core depths that are dated thousands of years ago Measurements of electrical conductivity are also made on the ice cores - these are closely linked to the acidity of the ice. Conductivity shows an annual cycle and is higher in the summer snow than the winter snow.

This is probably because of chemical reactions in the atmosphere involving dimethyl sulphide a chemical produced in greater quantities during the summer months by marine algae and phytoplanktonwhich result in production of low concentrations of sulphuric acid which is then distributed over the ice sheet.

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Sulphuric acid is often blasted into the atmosphere by volcanic eruptions. Therefore, the conductivity in the ice cores sometimes shows a peak at the depth corresponding to the time shortly after a volcanic eruption. I am not criticizing the hesitancy in attributing the effect to a particular cause in the first sentences of this paragraph.

I applaud it. But I do think it should be noted. A more reliable method of detecting volcanic eruptions from the ice cores however, is to measure sulphate directly. Sulphate also exists in sea salt which is deposited on the ice sheet in small quantities from wind-blown sea spray.

Thus, to examine the sulphate derived from volcanoes, the sea-salt sulphate needs first to be accounted for.

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